they are getting experience, not just the kind of you get in college when you dabble with a couple of things, you get practical hands-on experience. you get people to write recommendations for you, if i'm in journalism and jay carney writes a recommendation to say, hey, you should hire this guy, i think he'll pay more attention to that than the guy working at the shake shack over the summer, right? and networking, all the people you meet along the way. these are invaluable things that give you long-term prospects that you cannot get anywhere else and you cannot get in the classroom. >> i have to say, i wouldn't expect -- if i were offered an internship like that and i wasn't related to anybody that would allow me to get that, which is a bigger issue with the internships, why should they be paid? >> you are making their point for them, because the thing is that, yeah, social networks matter. getting access to the resources matters, but not everyone can afford to take an unpaid internship, right? >> fair point.